Date: Jan-March 2016
Location: Shibumi, Bangalore
Description: Talk with students at Shibumi
Transcription: by Bhairav (An alumni at Shibumi)
Measurement Is Destructive
The idea of a series of 20-minute dialogues came about when Kabir Jaithirtha, while engaging with 13-year-old children, noticed that they didn’t always have the stamina to engage meaningfully in the earlier, once a week, hour-long format. Hence the idea of having more frequent dialogues, for a shorter duration, everyday, with the group of children came about.
The intention to record was primarily to share the explorations with the parents of the group involved in the dialogue, so that these conversations might continue at home as well.
Listening to these dialogues opened up so much for many and we started sharing them with the wider community of friends and well-wishers.
It is important to share the background of this whole effort so that you, the reader/listener, understands the context in which this unfolded. We also hope that the occasional personal references made during the dialogues will not distract from the main exploration. Please be sensitive to the vulnerability that the children have shared so openly.
Warmly,
Tanu
KJ: Yesterday, we were seeing how, because this man invented a way of measuring the wealth of the nation—not the wealth, the income of the nation—right? So there is a difference between wealth and income. We call wealth as a stock, and we call income as a flow—right? But the human brain can get attached to measurement. Right? So, we become so attached to measurement that it begins to become more important than everything else, and quite often, measurement is quite destructive. For instance–
Student 1: Measuring what?
KJ: See, for example I can…see measurement and comparison go together. Not clear? For example, if I begin to measure the total income of a country, then automatically I begin to compare it with what happened last year for that country—what growth was there and what will happen next year.
Student 1: You can also compare between two other countries.
KJ: Then you can compare between two countries—right? And, quite often, these comparisons create their own difficulties because then you begin to unconsciously say, that “Oh, this country is more efficient because it’s growing at a faster rate.” Or, nowadays, they actually measure the income of a country every three months. It’s called a quarterly estimate—right? Now that doesn’t—then they have all kinds of ideas that if the total income is not growing in three months, and in the next three months also it’s not growing, there’s a deep economic problem, and so on. So that very act of measurement can become very destructive. We’ve seen it in school also. Sometimes when different kids are doing the same textbook, they begin to measure—saying, “How many pages have you done? How many pages have I done? I need to do more pages. I have done far more pages than you”. Right? Did you see that? Have you seen it happen?
Student 1: In me?
KJ: Not in you—in the school.
Student 1: Yeah.
KJ: You’ve seen it happen in the school. Has it happened in you?
Student 1: Yeah.
KJ: And what else happens when you measure like this? Have you measured that way?
Student 2: Yeah.
KJ: Have you?
Student 3: Yeah.
KJ: Have you?
Student 4: Yeah.
KJ: Have you?
Student 5: Yes.
KJ: Have you?
Student 6: Have I what?
Ganesh: Have you measured? “He has done more, I have done less.”
Student 6: Sometimes I have—I think I have.
KJ: So what happens when this measurement takes place? Have you noticed what else happens when this measurement takes place?
Student 3: You don’t relate to the other person.
KJ: You don’t relate to the other person. He becomes like a competition.
Student 1: Yeah
Student 4: And you start thinking, “I need to do more pages.”
Student 3: And you don’t feel happy with what you’re doing.
Student 1: You only feel happy when you’re ahead.
KJ: You’re ahead, and you feel unhappy when you’re behind. Right? So that happiness of being ahead…
Student 1: And when you reach that person you’re like, “Okay, that’s the normal.”
KJ: But that’s not a stable situation because he goes one page more and you become unhappy. He goes one page less, and then you become happy. So, it creates a false movement of happiness and unhappiness based on measurement—right? And it creates fear and anxiety also. What you called unhappiness—there’s a certain amount of anxiety involved in it. Right? Sheenam was saying today that she used to get worried because she was not worried enough. (Laughter!)
Student 1: What!
Ganesh: The noise of measurement!
KJ: That’s the noise of measurement. “Other people seem to be terribly worried about exams and all that. I don’t feel that worried. Maybe there’s something wrong with me because I’m not worried enough.” Right? So, this kind of measurement becomes a psychological movement. And I think the whole thing about yesterday’s book was that it has become like a psychological problem for countries—that they’re so caught up in measuring the amount of goods that they produce in a year or whatever, that they’re no longer observing what effect it has on the environment and how is it being shared. Is it actually creating greater security for all the people? Or for many people, it is creating insecurity because in this wanting to produce more and more you try to become so-called efficient. And when you try to become efficient, you replace, say, people with robots.
Student 6: You try to become more skilful. You were not having all that so you start making cars and all that.
KJ: Not only that, but you begin to replace people with robots. Or for that matter, somebody was doing—probably you—you know, the price of cars came down enormously in America because they shifted from what is called manufacturing each car separately to what is called assembly line manufacture. Assembly line manufacture meant that there was almost like a railway line there, and on the top of it the car would be moving, and at each stage the person would do only one thing for the car. Somebody would be only tightening the bolts, and so on. Now, that might be efficient in terms of producing more cars per day, per person. But what happens to the brain of that human being whose eight hours of the day is spent in just tightening bolts?
Student 6: Waste. He has to take a break. (Laughter!). He has to take a break!
KJ: He is not allowed to take a break.
Student 6: Then you should punish the ones for not letting him take a break.
Ganesh: Are you aware of the Charlie Chaplin movie where he is in the assembly line and it goes out of sequence—slightly goes out of sequence—and then the whole…
KJ: It is called Modern Times. Have you people watched Modern Times?
Student1: He keeps doing that and he gets so…
Student 2: Yes.
Student 3: Yeah.
KJ: Have you watched it Varun? You have.
Student 6: I don’t know…I don’t think so.
KJ: So maybe we should watch it again in the light of this.
Ganesh: And I think he looks somewhere once and turns. He loses the sequence. Afterwards it is chaos. The second thing I have heard now is in Toyota. See, now Toyota has gone ahead in terms of replacing the human beings with robotic arms. A major part of the Toyota car, when it goes through the assembly line, is not touched by human beings at all.
KJ: Not only in Japan—it is happening in India. Because I met recently a young woman who is an engineer in Toyota near Pune. And she said, “Mostly we have robots and a few human beings who are…” Now, the argument is that these human beings can do something else, and therefore the total wealth produced becomes more. But very often, when these human beings lose their jobs, there is nobody actually sitting there and saying, “What other jobs can these people do? How will they earn their livelihood?” Nobody is thinking about it. These people are supposed to think on their own, and very often they might be people who have developed a particular skill. They don’t really know how to go about developing other skills, and so on. And therefore, they are left out of it. Because we are not sharing the wealth that is created in an equal manner. Right? Then that extra wealth that is created gets grabbed by the few people. And these people—they don’t even have their incomes as salaries, and they don’t have a share of that wealth also. So, this kind of obsession with measurement can become… has become—not can become, has become—I think—quite destructive for human beings. Measurement does one more thing. We said measurement creates this false happiness, unhappiness, etc. right? It also creates this anxiety. But along with anxiety and unhappiness, it does something very major. Just watch your brains. Watch your brains and try and tell me what does this measurement, in creating the happiness, unhappiness, anxiety, fear, all that—what else does it create? I think if you watch your brains, you will find out. Do you understand what it creates?
Student 6: I don’t think so.
KJ: Did you understand my question?
Karuna: Desire. Wanting
Student 6: Desire like what you’re interested in
KJ: Something else.
Student 3: Like a sense of self?
Student 6: Why are you Kabir?
KJ: Do you see that? Clearly? Do you see that?
Ganesh: It creates a sense of self.
Student 6: The thing that is “I,I,I,I…”
KJ: That’s right. See that? That this measurement, in creating this movement of happiness, unhappiness, anxiety, fear, has also created a sense of self. I am separate from you. When it creates a sense of self, there is already a feeling of separation. This is the single most destructive movement in human beings.
Student 6: But Kabir uncle, we don’t feel like that if we like someone very much. You don’t feel like that
KJ: You do. All that you have done is—that self which has a border, you have drawn that person within that border.
Student 6: Pulled him inside the border
KJ: But when you have a border, inevitably your border makes sense only if there are some people outside the border. Right? If you have everybody inside the border, you don’t need a border. (Laughter!) Right? So the very act of creating a border creates an outside and an inside. So the self actually creates a border. Then I might say, “I like Prakriti very much.” But that’s because that border has drawn Prakriti inside and kept Asba out. Or the other way around. Right? Would you say this is the reason why human beings really can’t cooperate with each other?
Student 6: Because they are obsessed with their border.
KJ: Because the border comes in the way all the time. So, I was asking Suhaan—actually don’t tell him—because I have set a question to him, and he has to answer it on his own. I said, “What is the essence of violence?” Instead of describing violence as hitting somebody, being rude to them, etc., the essence of violence is—I would say—what would you say is the essence of violence? In the context of…
Student 6: The essence of violence…
KJ: See, when we normally ask what is violence, people tend to describe it in terms of hitting somebody, beating somebody, being rude to somebody, etc. But supposing you are not wanting the external symptoms of violence, but the source of violence, the root of violence—what is it?
Student 6: What causes violence?
KJ: Wanting my way is the essence of violence. Right?
Student 6: Because you’ve got so used to it.
KJ: Do you see that? And that habit of wanting my way comes very quickly. Right? Roopa aunty was talking of a situation where this kid was leaning against a wall. Yesterday she said—or this morning she told us. And this other kid was feeling really tired and said, “Please give me that wall. I am feeling tired. I want to lean against the wall.” Immediately, wanting my way—the brain says, “Why should I give the wall? I came here first. I have chosen to sit here. Why should I give it?” But when you see the fact that the other human being is tired, and probably you are not tired, then it is not difficult for you to hand over the wall to that person and say, “Please take the wall.” Right? Which is why I think it is very, very important to understand. And I am saying—it is possible to free the brain of this sense of self. It is not such a strong, difficult thing. If you see the danger of it, and you give your energy to freeing the brain of it, and I think from this age, if you start—it is possible to free the brain of the sense of self. And so the brain begins to function in a very different way. It no longer automatically, mechanically (Aditya, automatically, mechanically!)—it no longer reacts. Right? Then there is a different kind of relationship, a different sense of affection. And that creates a different kind of meaning for life. If there is a sense of self, the meaning of life becomes entirely limited by that feeling of self. “What am I going to get? What am I not going to get? What am I going to lose? Am I going to have this?”
Student 6: But Kabir uncle, first of all you obviously don’t bother too much about other people’s business.
KJ: When you have a sense of self?
Student 1: Saying just, just care about of yourself. You should just take care of your health. Like that. My dad said plastic has BPA so don’t use a plastic bottle. Then I said other people are using it so why can’t I use it. Then my mom said you take care of your health. Then also the self is there.
KJ: No, it is not like that. What your mother is saying is—there is disorder in the world, and if there is disorder in you as well, you are sustaining and adding to the disorder in the world.
Student 6: Increasing the disorder.
KJ: Increasing the disorder and sustaining it.
Student 6: Meaning?
KJ: Keeping it going. But if this brain frees itself of the disorder, then to that extent, it is not contributing to the disorder in the world. Right? And being free of the disorder, it may do something to bring about an ending of the disorder for all of mankind. Right? Do you see that?
Student 6: Best is just to (restrain?} disorder, not helping it to increase.
KJ: Not only not increase, it may be possible to—see if it is possible to bring an end to the disorder. Right? Do you see that?
Student 1: Yeah
KJ: That’s the whole purpose of this school, actually. To see if we can really have an education where you are seeing clearly all this, and so the brain is freeing itself of the disorder. The rest—English, Maths, Geography, History—okay. We have to do something of that. We have to be able to have some skills in order to earn a livelihood, a little bit. But it’s not the most important thing. Does it make sense to all of you?
Student 4: Yeah
Student 3: Yeah.
Student 6: Not so much. But it does make sense because you’ve to not just have a self
KJ: It makes sense?
Student 6: What I said.
Ganesh: Does it make sense?
KJ: Not to have a sense of self.
Student 6: No
KJ: And you have to learn. The learning occurs when you are watching that sense of self act in daily life.
Student 6: The sense of self is not always there. I am not always…I’m not totally selfish.
KJ: I am not so sure. I think it comes up very quickly.
Student 6: What comes up quickly?
Students 3 and 4: The self
KJ: That feeling of functioning from the self.
Student 6: We are not exactly functioning from the self. Just thinking about self means selfish.
KJ: No… no. Wanting that extra piece of cake—even if the other person doesn’t have a piece of cake.
Student 6: That’s what was happening in GBS
KJ: Or when the amount of stuff that has come is less, and therefore saying “we should share it in an unfair way, disproportionate way,” or just proportionately, instead of saying, “Let’s all equally share whatever is there.”
Student 6: The sense of self should be to hit you or not. Like in a school if there’s a sense that they hit you, then you eat one more!
KJ: What?!
Ganesh: (Laughing) It was a joke discussion…
Student 6: No, Ganesh uncle! You have to tell. You have to tell
Ganesh, KJ: (laughter)
Ganesh: I have to ask for a sense…!
Student 6: I have to watch
Ganesh and KJ: Sometimes the discussions go all over the place Shall we stop?
Ganesh: Yes. I think it was very good. This idea of sitting like this.